Discussion: Discovery Game

14 thoughts on “Discussion: Discovery Game”

1. as long as you dont go all charlie kaufman and turn The Pretentious Video Project into a video about why The Pretentious Video Project took so long to make, then youre doing fine.

   i simply dont understand the point of Ludocene; i think youve pretty much covered the reasons why however. i also dont understand how it is supposed to pay for itself—well nevermind, turns out im not interested in it enough to speculate anyway.

   thanks for the zarf link! theres an example of someone i will listen to about games, as he has a sharp critical and analytical eye, and an appreciation for creativity even when not aligned to his tastes, and communicates both excellently. reminds me of someone…

2. I will never not mention this every time it comes up: “The Town That Went Feral” is The Town That Got Fucked By Bears.

   (That’s its official name in the SCP database. I feel like the SCP database could be an analogy for discovery. There are way too many entries to read! So you could read the highest-rated ones, or the ones that end in 000 or 999, or the ones that jump out at you when you scan the database, which means I click on things like “Q U A C K Q U A C K” or ”
   TATTLETALE – [ENTRY REMOVED FROM DATABASE]” or “Red” (it’s written in red) even though I find these kind of format screws a little cheap. But how else will they stand out from the crowd?)

   (Also my proposed lede for a story: “Like some small children’s bedrooms, Grafton, New Hampshire was taken over by bears.)

3. I’m not somebody in Ludocene’s target space but at the same time, it’s insane to me that you don’t see the point or the purpose. Discoverability is a huge problem and has been for years, and will only get worse with every passing day. This is not just for the player (who often have such a tremendous backlog precisely because they made waffley half-hearted purchasing decisions they aren’t behind 100%) but moreso the makers. If you ever made a single thing that had to actually sell on any kind of marketplace you’d know that, dismissively saying it’s an issue for “creators and PR firms” as if creators aren’t the entire point of the whole damn thing and marketing their works is the only way to not have it shoveled under an abyss of AI filth…

   [REMOVED remainder of comment as it was inappropriate –Joel]

4. @Ariamaki, you are barking up the wrong tree.

   Firstly, Joel has been a pillar of indie gaming and discovery himself for years. He’s on Team We Should All Be Able To Make Cool Indie Games, so chill.

   I actually completely agree with Joel. Discovery is a huge problem for creators, and mostly invisible if you’re a consumer.

   Discovery is a tremendous problem for creators. How the hell do we stand out in the most crowded state this marketplace has ever been, where tiny breakout hits dominate people’s attention? But how many PLAYERS care about that? As far as a player is concerned, discovery is not an issue. They find games that look cool, buy them, play them, and by the time they’re done they have bought ten more, because there is SO MUCH COOL STUFF out there that you could never get through it all.

   (I guess this is what a crisis of overproduction looks like.)

   I say this as a creator myself who is constantly struggling for discovery: discovery is one of the most critical problems facing the industry, and it is one that players are not motivated to care about unless they are interested in game design as an art form – which is to say, a tiny fraction. Joel is not talking about this in a dismissive way, he is stating a fact about the dynamics of the indie sphere.

   Joel, I came here to say, cool article, I hope discovery gets solved a bit more with this app but I’m sceptical. I actually turn to discovery systems sometimes (mainly 50gameslike.com) to see if I can find a particular type of game that I would love to play. Over the years I have desperately wanted a space game that is like Elite Dangerous but a bit less… fiddly? And which allows you to pilot ships of all sizes, from one-person fighters to 200-person supercruisers or whatever. And I really want someone to make a House of Cards-like game about manipulating votes in a parliament, I think that would be cool. The problem seems to be less one of discoverability, though, and more that nobody has made games that fit the bill for me there.

   Ultimately I didn’t back Ludocene (not much money this month) but I hope it gets made: it might be a useful tool in future, and might actually drive users towards my games! Wouldn’t that be nice.

   Good luck with the video!

5. vfig If it does solve the discovery issue, then that would be great, but I’m not convinced it’s anything other than another novel presentation of the same approach we’ve seen in other apps/platforms/websites. Also the target market are not the people talking about it. Have to admit I didn’t even think about how it pays for itself; I think Dominic Tarason said something about being paid for providing expert input into the system, but I can’t trace that message now so don’t quote me, I may have AI-hallucinated myself.

   The Pretentious Video Project: careful what you don’t wish for

   Matt Incredible how life imitates art. Thank you for desperately trying to relate your SCP comment to Ludocene 🙂

   Ariamaki I’ve deleted out the bit of your comment where you got too heated. Disagreement is fine but no need to make this personal.

   So, on topic. I used the terms “creators” and “PR” for less capitalisms but OK: discovery is a problem for sellers and Ludocene solves this (assuming it works) by getting buyers to change their behaviour. As it doesn’t solve a problem for people who are expected to use the app, I can’t see how it gains momentum. The players who need to change behaviour don’t care, the players who *are* interested in it don’t need it: “I’m not somebody in Ludocene’s target space.”

   James I hate that I flinch when hearing a new game is coming out that you absolutely must play. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I’m always on permanent catchup, still trying to find time to finish the Talos 2 DLC, for example, but every month there’s so many new puzzle games all of which are ready swallow your hours whole. Alan Hazelden announced The Electrifying Incident and I was happy for him but I was *sob*. (I also wept that I’d spent so much time in Animal Well.)

   It wasn’t supposed to be like this. It was supposed to be “use the internet to find your true fans”. Absolute bullshit. There’s enough money in games to keep many more indies in good health than they are, but it’s the gravity well problem – too many people are playing the same game. But that’s just the nature of culture.

   It would’ve been nice to have written the next chapter of The Weapons of Progress. The chapter I’d written was about price; the next looked at volume.

6. Man, I saw Noodle’s video a while back and it made me sad, even though it’s a great look at the game-making process. Probably because it’s a great look at the game-making process.

   Re: Ludocene. I find it… “interesting” let’s say that the pitch is “matching you to a game”, when it basically asks you to do most of the work, at least from what it seems. If I’m to select “well-known experts”, why wouldn’t I just follow them directly and cut out the middleman? At least they are (usually) articulated enough to explain recommendations. “If you like Citizen Sleeper 2, you’ll like…”, do you know what I like about Citizen Sleeper 2? RPG mechanics? Survival-lite mechanics? Sci-fi setting? Emotional plot? An ending that made me cry? However granular, no automated system can account for the specific reasons someone might like a game (or book, or film, or whatever). Ideally, curation (by humans) would be a better way of solving discoverability as a production problem, but we already have curation – social media and youtube are full of “curators” of games big and small. So maybe we are in a full crisis of overproduction, as James Patton said. Not many ways out of it, save for a drastic structural, well, restructuring. I really don’t see how another algorithmic tool added to the pile would do anything.

   Also, the plot of Attack on Titan is about to become MUCH worse. In retrospect, I have no idea how I got through the manga all the way to the end, but it made me feel a bit dirty when I (figuratively) closed the last volume. Do not recommend.

7. I didn’t have to try to relate my SCP comment to Ludocene. I was riffing off one of the links and that makes it on topic! I desperately tried to relate it to Ludocene purely out of the goodness of my heart.

   Speaking of the links and of discovering games, has anyone tried Inkle’s A Highland Song? It seems intriguing and I also feel like I should be supporting Inkle, but it has some bad reviews on Steam, and doesn’t that make me feel dirty to hesitate over that? The article talks about Ingold and has a quote from Sam Barlow, both of whom were involved in the tiny parser-text game scene.

   Ludocene! Is it for me? I feel like, yeah, I’m looking for new cool games to play, for the same reason I continue to buy music even though I have more music than I can re-listen to in the rest of my life (maybe? refuse to do the math on whether this is literally true). But not that many new cool games. And… I want things to be nice for game-makers who don’t have the one indie breakout hit, but I don’t know if it my experience winds up worse if I’m not playing the same game as everyone else? For maybe niche values of “everyone else” like “fans of deckbuilding Sokobans.” Which sucks for creators! But doesn’t put me in a situation where I need to discover too many games through Ludocene, as opposed to “stuff people are talking about” etc. For niche values of “people.”

   Maybe the thing for Ludocene is for it to become a really engaging game itself. Idea! Balatro except the cards are games and the algorithm puts games that you might like if you like other games in the same hand. And analyzes your playstyle to see which games you’d like, like Psycho Mantis. I still am resisting playing Balatro.

8. @Matt, I’m very biased because I helped test Highland Song and am generally a big fan of Inkle, but I do think it’s worth checking out.

   Highland Song is a platformer set in the Scottish highlands about a girl who has never left home going on an adventure. There are no precision jumps; it’s more the push-and-pull between 1) struggling over obstacles that seem completely impassable and 2) the wild open joy of sprinting across a bit of flat. (Those moments are hugely elevated by this brilliant musical rhythm game to excellent folk music, you can see an example in the trailer and it feels fantastic every time.)

   As you explore the highlands you also encounter unusual characters, who might help or hinder your journey. This is the bit of the game that feels most “inkle-y”. It’s rare and special. I’m still not sure if one character was the King Under the Mountain of Arthurian legend or just some random drunkard living in a cave.

   Some other things worth mentioning:
   – The world itself is big and handcrafted, not procgen as I thought at first. Art style’s lovely.
   – But your paths through it are procedurally selected; there’s a system running in the background that tries to feed you little clues to help you keep pushing onwards. You might stumble over a treasure map that tells you about a nearby path that will take you further on your journey, or a carving on a stone, or a message in a bottle.
   – There’s a time limit (“Come to the lighthouse by Beltane”) but if you miss it, that’s fine, you just don’t get the best ending. I missed it twice and got it on my third try, which was actually perfectly paced.
   – If you “die” (ie. fall off too many mountains, or freeze during the night) you just wake up a bit bruised. I like a good “death is not the end” mechanic.

   Do I recommend it? Yes, but only if watching the trailer fills you with a feeling of joy and wonder. This is very different to a typical Inkle game, so I think that’s why it has some mixed reviews: it’s quite different to their previous output (and, indeed, any other game) so people didn’t know what to make of it. I had a blast, though, and it’s fairly short and entirely beautiful.

9. Goodness me, drama in the Electron Dance comment section. I never thought I’d see the day.

   I have to agree with the general sentiments. This doesn’t seem like something I personally need. I get through games extremely slowly and I’m not sure I’d want to be recommended more of what I’m currently playing.

   *deafening sound of nobody asking what I’m currently playing*

   I’m currently playing Dark Souls 3 and Ghost Trick. My relationship to the genre being something akin to self-inflicted Stockholm Syndrome, in that I can hear the doors swinging menacingly shut behind me whenever I step into the tutorial area. Although my stubbornness sees me through, and I generally find the effort rewarding, I am never enticed by the prospect going in. So being given an arms-length list of Soulslikes to play would not unlike flicking through a catalogue of invasive dental procedures.

   Simiarly I don’t want to be given the ‘so I haerd u like VNs’ rundown either, because as I discovered when I reached the non-Shu Takumi-penned Ace Attorney games, the writer can very much make or break one of these things. I’m not sure how I didn’t realise that this would be a load-bearing creative function for games which are more than 90% text, but there you have it.

   So far, so much uninspired waffle. Basically my relationship to gaming has become a bit crooked (in that the things I want out of it seem to be have become so hyperspecific that I struggle to articulate them – see Lorenzo’s comment above), and I’m mistrusful that technology could break me out of my current rut by listing off more of the same. But one thing that did occur to me is that I’m not everyone! There are probably people out there who could definitely benefit from this kind of curation. Maybe? For reasons suggested by Joel and others, I’m not sure how this curation cuts through compared to the massive amount of other curation already available (insert relevant XKCD here), but sure, maybe it’ll work.

   But doesn’t this bring us to a certain thorny point? We’re essentially shrugging here and saying ‘the market will decide if this service is useful’. But this thing is explicitly attempting to address issues of perceived market dysfunction! Which I think gets back to Joel’s point about the need to change buyer behaviour. From a certain perspective this is like bringing the water to the horse, with the understanding that you still won’t be able to make it drink.

10. @James, OK sold! I won’t say that I would necessarily have been like “I need this” from the trailer if it wasn’t inkle, but it did seem like much of the negative reviews came from the time limit, and I’m glad to be reassured on that account. I’m happy to replay a game if I like it anyway. Which is another problem for creators, because “intermittently, I’m playing through* Celeste again” doesn’t do much for anyone else’s game.

    I did have a moment in the trailer where I suddenly remembered the trailer from Kentucky Route Zero back when it was a platformer. Which reminds me, I never finished Kentucky Route Zero and need to replay it from the beginning. Ditto Mutazione. Which gets back to Joel’s problem. I like kentuck-’em-ups at least in theory but I seem to have trouble finishing them (part of this goes back to when I was constantly short on hard drive space, part of it is that if I start one I need to admit to myself that I’m not doing anything else for an hour or two).

    *meaning, to the summit. A-Side version of flag 2 is more than enough for me, I don’t think I’m going to be fanatical enough to try the Core let alone Farewell.

11. OK, James, I’m really struggling with A Highland Song. I blew through the time limit and that’s OK, but the game is not explaining its systems well to me at all. It seemed like it switched abruptly from “when you get to a peak mark the thing that looks like the map” to “when you get to a peak five maps will pop up, none of them will look anything like what you see, and when you try to do something the feedback will not make it clear whether you got it right.” To the extent that I dread finding a map because it just gives me more cruft to deal with at the next peak I hit. I think I’ve succeeded in finding a path at maybe one of the last four peaks, and I haven’t reached that path. Any advice?

12. @Matt The map system is a little confusing sometimes, and one thing I do find annoying about the game’s systems is that sometimes you’ll still have maps lying around for places you can no longer get to. So it’s possible that you might have 5 maps in your journal and none of them are relevant for the current landscape.

    Basically the game’s world is split into multiple layers/levels. Each layer has a number of sub-layers (ie. rows of mountains, hills etc). Travel between sub-layers within your current layer is possible via foot bridges etc., but once you travel “forward” by a whole layer, there’s no going back. (THIS IS A GOOD THING, it would be confusing otherwise.) Your goal is to find a way to the next layer by using a map to find a path, or to reach a path that is already unlocked and does not require a map.

    This has some implications.
    1) Right now, you’re in a particular map layer, and your goal is to get to the next layer by finding a path via a map. (I think you can also travel to the next layer via cave networks sometimes too.)
    2) I’m pretty sure the game only gives you maps that you could actually use to find a path from your current position. BUT, you keep all the maps that you’ve picked up this run, and sometimes you travel past the layer which a map you possess refers to. So it’s possible you’re carrying a bunch of maps that are no longer possible to use this run.
    3) Travel forward usually requires maps, cave exploration, or exploration of your current layer until you find an open path to the next layer.

    Because of this, the game DOES keep feeding you maps. If you’re stuck, you will sometimes stumble across a map that you can use to advance.

    So if you’re stuck, my best advice is to travel back and forth across the layer you’re currently stuck in, and keep an eye out for maps that will help you advance. You will probably find either a path forward that requires no map, or a map that you can then use to unlock a path.

    also, just FYI, if your health drops to zero you pass out, and wake up somewhere else – often a layer further on. So if you’re COMPLETELY desperate, try falling off a mountain?

    And while I’m talking about Inkle, they just released a fun new game called “Expelled!” (exclamation mark compulsory), a whodunnit and spiritual sequel to Overboard! set in a girl’s school. It’s an interesting take on Overboard!’s systems, and is more of a traditional “Inkle-like” than Highland Song, I would say.

13. Let’s reply to old comments. Why not. I will not be discussing Highland Song at this time.

    Lorenzo

    The one thing about Noodle’s video is that does seem to drop the ball near the end and make it clear why the game didn’t get made. I was watching, waiting for the other shoe to drop, and it just… doesn’t. But apart from that, it’s really good at showing how hard it is to not just *make* a game but stay financially afloat if you want to be more than Guy In The Bedroom On A Computer.

    I’ve heard the rumours that Attack on Titan doesn’t necessarily improve with each series and now you’re scaring me. The first series had a tendency to meander and timeout, but this second series – despite being short – really seems to be doing a great bang-up job of wasting audience time.

    Generally

    For videogame development to become a better bet, either we have to ensure only ten games get made a month (which is clearly insane) or players start diverging their play rather investing huge amounts of time on big hits (which is clearly insane). I just can’t see Ludocene or anything else breaking this cycle. Like CA suggests, it might be a cool thing for some people – there was a time where I used to run through my discovery queue in Steam regularly – but a lot of us here are following blogs or social media or youtubers or streamers which keep feeding us game ideas. Most of the Crashbook entries are recommendations I’ve seen rather than spotting something myself.

    And yes perhaps if Ludocene leans more heavily into the curation-chasing-as-game aspect… but there’s something icky about that too, right? Skinner boxing people into buying/playing unusual games sounds like the opposite of what we’d envision for a Utopian Gaming Future.

    “I’m currently playing Dark Souls 3 and Ghost Trick. My relationship to the genre being something akin to self-inflicted Stockholm Syndrome” — pretty much me playing intense action games. How many times have I played NIDUS now? QUITE A LOT AND I DON’T GET ANY BETTER

    Matt

    Why is it you don’t finish Kentuck-’em-ups? Was the answer alluded to in your para about hard drive space and “needing time”?

14. James: Thanks for the tips there. I do think that, when I reach a peak, the map is only supposed to be popping up maps that are still ahead of me (so I might have five maps but only two are showing at this peak), but is it definitely showing maps that I can mark from that peak? It seems like some of them are too far ahead. And given that there are several maps in play at once, the process of panning through the view looking for something that might correspond to one of them became very painful. It seemed like it went directly from straightforward maps to maps where the landscape was obscured by clouds and dark and lightning and there were five maps to use and the path might not even be visible, and also that Moira’s remark when you put down a marker stopped giving me clear feedback or maybe it was just that I wasn’t getting feedback because I wasn’t getting it right.

    Maybe I need to return to it sometime when I’m less stressed out which is scheduled for never. I just feel like there are twenty different systems that the game isn’t explaining, which also means that sometimes I’m getting encouragement (like hitting a rhythm sequence or getting some bit of voiceover from Hamish) that isn’t signposting any progress forward. I’d sort of like to try from the beginning to see if I can learn the systems again but it means trashing all the progress I have made.

    Joel: Yeah, on my old computer I couldn’t leave lots of games of a GB or more sitting uncompleted on my hard drive, and Kentuck-’em-ups tend to have largeish file sizes and leisurely paces, and they aren’t like platformers or puzzle games where I can tell myself that I’m just going to play a bit (let alone roguelikes where I can listen to music or do something while playing) so they feel like a time commitment even if I actually play other games for just as long. With Kentucky Route Zero itself I also had a thing where every time I finished an act I was like, “Well now I can wait as long as it took for the next act to come out,” though I’m well past that I think.