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	<title>Comments on: A Need to Create: Mitu Khandaker</title>
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	<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker</link>
	<description>On Video Games Of The Personal Computer</description>
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		<title>By: Stupid Comment of the Month #4 &#124; Arcadian Rhythms</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9572</link>
		<dc:creator>Stupid Comment of the Month #4 &#124; Arcadian Rhythms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 09:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9572</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] with Mitu&#8217;s work, then you could do far worse than reading HarbourMaster&#8217;s recent interview with her as part of his The Academics are Coming series.   Tags: greater internet fuckwad theory, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with Mitu&#8217;s work, then you could do far worse than reading HarbourMaster&#8217;s recent interview with her as part of his The Academics are Coming series.   Tags: greater internet fuckwad theory, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: HM</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9354</link>
		<dc:creator>HM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 08:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Eric: I wrote this post two years ago (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.electrondance.com/lassie-gets-rightsized/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lassie Gets Rightsized&lt;/a&gt;) where I responded to Laura Michet on how we shouldn&#039;t keep on defining new terms to talk about things we already have terms for. She had problems with a word like &quot;interactive&quot; and preferred &quot;agency&quot;. I laughed. Which is strange because I use the word &quot;agency&quot; far more than &quot;interactive&quot; these days. Oops.

It is possible that academics have plenty of useful terms which categorise a lot of this shit I have trouble articulating. I&#039;m aware of &quot;diegetic&quot;, &quot;dialogical&quot; (this one is going to come up in a post sometime this year) and there&#039;s Clint Hocking&#039;s magically overlong &quot;ludonarrative dissonance&quot;. The trouble is, even if I learnt lots of cool terms, no one who reads Electron Dance would have any idea what I was talking about. Just like I have trouble tackling academic papers.

@BeamSplashX: Ah, but I&#039;m not entirely sure of that. Like I was saying, when someone makes a grand statement about game design, they don&#039;t mean games at all. They mean a certain subclass of games which often goes undeclared. There&#039;s no point talking about how gaming narrative needs to be shaped in a game like Tetris; the context is clear here but not always. If you&#039;re interested in the latest discussion about ALL YOUR BASE BELONG TO MY DEFINITION go check out &lt;a href=&quot;http://tap-repeatedly.com/2012/07/yes-its-a-game&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Amanda Lange&#039;s opinion on Tap today&lt;/a&gt; (I already weighed in with an enormous essay-comment, AGAIN, well done me).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Eric: I wrote this post two years ago (<a href="http://www.electrondance.com/lassie-gets-rightsized/" rel="nofollow">Lassie Gets Rightsized</a>) where I responded to Laura Michet on how we shouldn&#8217;t keep on defining new terms to talk about things we already have terms for. She had problems with a word like &#8220;interactive&#8221; and preferred &#8220;agency&#8221;. I laughed. Which is strange because I use the word &#8220;agency&#8221; far more than &#8220;interactive&#8221; these days. Oops.</p>
<p>It is possible that academics have plenty of useful terms which categorise a lot of this shit I have trouble articulating. I&#8217;m aware of &#8220;diegetic&#8221;, &#8220;dialogical&#8221; (this one is going to come up in a post sometime this year) and there&#8217;s Clint Hocking&#8217;s magically overlong &#8220;ludonarrative dissonance&#8221;. The trouble is, even if I learnt lots of cool terms, no one who reads Electron Dance would have any idea what I was talking about. Just like I have trouble tackling academic papers.</p>
<p>@BeamSplashX: Ah, but I&#8217;m not entirely sure of that. Like I was saying, when someone makes a grand statement about game design, they don&#8217;t mean games at all. They mean a certain subclass of games which often goes undeclared. There&#8217;s no point talking about how gaming narrative needs to be shaped in a game like Tetris; the context is clear here but not always. If you&#8217;re interested in the latest discussion about ALL YOUR BASE BELONG TO MY DEFINITION go check out <a href="http://tap-repeatedly.com/2012/07/yes-its-a-game" rel="nofollow">Amanda Lange&#8217;s opinion on Tap today</a> (I already weighed in with an enormous essay-comment, AGAIN, well done me).</p>
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		<title>By: BeamSplashX</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9342</link>
		<dc:creator>BeamSplashX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2012 17:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Any time poetry came up in my creative writing courses, the professors always made a point of asking us what defined poetry.

The ultimate answer pretty much amounted to &quot;because someone said so,&quot; be it the author or the readership. If it&#039;s good enough for something that&#039;s been around for centuries, I think it&#039;ll do for games.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any time poetry came up in my creative writing courses, the professors always made a point of asking us what defined poetry.</p>
<p>The ultimate answer pretty much amounted to &#8220;because someone said so,&#8221; be it the author or the readership. If it&#8217;s good enough for something that&#8217;s been around for centuries, I think it&#8217;ll do for games.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Brasure</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9329</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Brasure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9329</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Deus Ex--&gt;Cart Life? Hm. That&#039;s interesting. I&#039;m going to have to think on that more. (I also need to give the original Deus Ex a proper shot at a second playthrough--I tried last year after having played it last when it first came out, and found it too fiddly for me to deal with, but I&#039;m sure if I powered through the early levels I&#039;d get back into the groove of the game.)

I totally get your point though--a medium that includes, Mega Man, Cart Life, and Carcossonne can&#039;t really be considered a coherent medium.

Then again, I&#039;m sure we (me in particular) sound like children to the academics and there&#039;s a paper out there somewhere that has dealt with all these issues already. But I&#039;m not into academics... and that&#039;s why the bulk of my work is interviewing people and finding out what they think of these issues. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deus Ex&#8211;&gt;Cart Life? Hm. That&#8217;s interesting. I&#8217;m going to have to think on that more. (I also need to give the original Deus Ex a proper shot at a second playthrough&#8211;I tried last year after having played it last when it first came out, and found it too fiddly for me to deal with, but I&#8217;m sure if I powered through the early levels I&#8217;d get back into the groove of the game.)</p>
<p>I totally get your point though&#8211;a medium that includes, Mega Man, Cart Life, and Carcossonne can&#8217;t really be considered a coherent medium.</p>
<p>Then again, I&#8217;m sure we (me in particular) sound like children to the academics and there&#8217;s a paper out there somewhere that has dealt with all these issues already. But I&#8217;m not into academics&#8230; and that&#8217;s why the bulk of my work is interviewing people and finding out what they think of these issues. :)</p>
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		<title>By: HM</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9320</link>
		<dc:creator>HM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2012 10:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9320</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Eric: I don&#039;t want to be one of those guys who stands up and says &quot;this medium is different to everything else ever before and more powerful!&quot; because the signs are that it&#039;s pretty difficult to pull off anything more than strong emotions (dance/music) - making something like social commentary seems to force you into chasing book/film structure (heavy control of narrative in RPGs, interactive fiction, graphical adventures, Twine-based CYOA). But I&#039;m not particularly comfortable with embracing a dance or music view either because we&#039;re still getting really interesting stuff from contained, authored decision trees like offered in Deus Ex or Cart Life. (I think the promise of the original Deus Ex can be seen more visibly in Cart Life, but I have nothing to back that up other than this very sentence.) This is all very hand-wavy and may not be precisely responding to you. That&#039;s because...

...because of your point. &quot;Video games&quot; covers everything from board games to CYOA to FPS to RTS to world explorers to toys. You can see why Raph Koster thinks the term &quot;game&quot; must decompose into more technical definitions in time because practically anything you say about &quot;games&quot; is going to be wrong. There exists an edge case to destroy every statement made about the word &quot;game&quot;. When I wrote &quot;Those Hollywood Hours&quot; last year, there&#039;s an implicit assumption that I&#039;m talking about &quot;heavily authored&quot; games in which replays offer diminishing returns and not something like Tidalis, Zaga-33 or Space Giraffe. But how do I sum that up in a pithy sentence? I am increasingly struggling with the language. Most essays referring to &quot;games&quot; don&#039;t actually mean &quot;all games&quot; but a particular game context.

I have no doubt this chaotic, messy comment will turn into an article in two years&#039; time. =)

I can&#039;t disagree with your Cart Life comment, of course. It&#039;s such an important title. It should be informing game design; it contains such important lessons. I could still write so much about that game.

@BC: Hadn&#039;t seen it. That opening staring-direct-into-my-eyes quote from Chris Hecker was almost enough for me to close the browser tab, though. I felt like someone was behind the camera shouting &quot;more emotion!&quot;. I find it difficult to stomach excitable sound bites because, out of context, they sound just like PR marketspeak. Nonetheless, some of the later snippets were quite interesting. I am intrigued but wary.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Eric: I don&#8217;t want to be one of those guys who stands up and says &#8220;this medium is different to everything else ever before and more powerful!&#8221; because the signs are that it&#8217;s pretty difficult to pull off anything more than strong emotions (dance/music) &#8211; making something like social commentary seems to force you into chasing book/film structure (heavy control of narrative in RPGs, interactive fiction, graphical adventures, Twine-based CYOA). But I&#8217;m not particularly comfortable with embracing a dance or music view either because we&#8217;re still getting really interesting stuff from contained, authored decision trees like offered in Deus Ex or Cart Life. (I think the promise of the original Deus Ex can be seen more visibly in Cart Life, but I have nothing to back that up other than this very sentence.) This is all very hand-wavy and may not be precisely responding to you. That&#8217;s because&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;because of your point. &#8220;Video games&#8221; covers everything from board games to CYOA to FPS to RTS to world explorers to toys. You can see why Raph Koster thinks the term &#8220;game&#8221; must decompose into more technical definitions in time because practically anything you say about &#8220;games&#8221; is going to be wrong. There exists an edge case to destroy every statement made about the word &#8220;game&#8221;. When I wrote &#8220;Those Hollywood Hours&#8221; last year, there&#8217;s an implicit assumption that I&#8217;m talking about &#8220;heavily authored&#8221; games in which replays offer diminishing returns and not something like Tidalis, Zaga-33 or Space Giraffe. But how do I sum that up in a pithy sentence? I am increasingly struggling with the language. Most essays referring to &#8220;games&#8221; don&#8217;t actually mean &#8220;all games&#8221; but a particular game context.</p>
<p>I have no doubt this chaotic, messy comment will turn into an article in two years&#8217; time. =)</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t disagree with your Cart Life comment, of course. It&#8217;s such an important title. It should be informing game design; it contains such important lessons. I could still write so much about that game.</p>
<p>@BC: Hadn&#8217;t seen it. That opening staring-direct-into-my-eyes quote from Chris Hecker was almost enough for me to close the browser tab, though. I felt like someone was behind the camera shouting &#8220;more emotion!&#8221;. I find it difficult to stomach excitable sound bites because, out of context, they sound just like PR marketspeak. Nonetheless, some of the later snippets were quite interesting. I am intrigued but wary.</p>
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		<title>By: badgercommander</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9306</link>
		<dc:creator>badgercommander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9306</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So, to try and contribute a little more constructively... I am assuming people have seen this:

http://criticalpathproject.com/trailer/index.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, to try and contribute a little more constructively&#8230; I am assuming people have seen this:</p>
<p><a href="http://criticalpathproject.com/trailer/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://criticalpathproject.com/trailer/index.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Eric Brasure</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9305</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Brasure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2012 20:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh yeah, I know, the movies/games analogies are totally played out, but it&#039;s most recent mass artform, so of course it&#039;s always going to be brought up. I&#039;m personally coming around to the idea that games are more like music or dance than authored artforms like film or writing.

That Tom Bissell piece on LA Noire from last year really messed with my mind, especially the end, and I&#039;m not really sure that you can categorize every single videogame as part of the same medium. It&#039;s such a diffuse form of expression.

Then again, when someone working in a medium can produce something like Cart Life... well, what can you even say that doesn&#039;t sound condescending? It&#039;s not a medium? What does that even mean? Cart Life is so wholly authored and so wholly performative at the same time that it&#039;s hard to make sense of where it came from or what it&#039;s a part of. I know you think your Citizen Kane tweet was combative, but it was also true. I think Cart Life is probably the finest achievement in the past 10 years in whatever medium videogames are.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh yeah, I know, the movies/games analogies are totally played out, but it&#8217;s most recent mass artform, so of course it&#8217;s always going to be brought up. I&#8217;m personally coming around to the idea that games are more like music or dance than authored artforms like film or writing.</p>
<p>That Tom Bissell piece on LA Noire from last year really messed with my mind, especially the end, and I&#8217;m not really sure that you can categorize every single videogame as part of the same medium. It&#8217;s such a diffuse form of expression.</p>
<p>Then again, when someone working in a medium can produce something like Cart Life&#8230; well, what can you even say that doesn&#8217;t sound condescending? It&#8217;s not a medium? What does that even mean? Cart Life is so wholly authored and so wholly performative at the same time that it&#8217;s hard to make sense of where it came from or what it&#8217;s a part of. I know you think your Citizen Kane tweet was combative, but it was also true. I think Cart Life is probably the finest achievement in the past 10 years in whatever medium videogames are.</p>
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		<title>By: HM</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9298</link>
		<dc:creator>HM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jul 2012 13:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9298</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Eric. I wondered what it would take to prise you out of lurker space and into the harsh light of the comment sun.

First, I&#039;m just using the term &quot;academic games&quot; to be associated with those games that are built by academics; originally I assumed they were all research-based but that turned out to be, well, an assumption. Second, movies != games and there are still shitloads of questions out there that haven&#039;t been answered in terms of game design, delivery of narrative and algorithmic systems: I don&#039;t see anywhere near the same number of important questions pending for film structure.

Now, whether there is a clear line that can be drawn around &quot;academic games&quot; - whether the distinction is actually useful in any way - I&#039;m going to come back to this in the final piece &lt;em&gt;The Academics Are Here&lt;/em&gt; and try to organise what we&#039;ve discovered through the interviews.

I have a bunch of other arguments which also relate to that &lt;a href=&quot;https://twitter.com/ElectronDance/status/226039900577865728&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bolshy Citizen Kane comment I tweeted this week&lt;/a&gt; and I&#039;m probably going to crush them into an article. (In a nutshell - I&#039;m coming round to the idea that comparisons to &quot;other media&quot; are being overdone; the dissimilarities are too numerous. &lt;a href=&quot;http://gamedesignadvance.com/?p=1567&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Frank Lantz thinks games shouldn&#039;t even be called a medium&lt;/a&gt; but that&#039;s really not quite what I&#039;m thinking.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Eric. I wondered what it would take to prise you out of lurker space and into the harsh light of the comment sun.</p>
<p>First, I&#8217;m just using the term &#8220;academic games&#8221; to be associated with those games that are built by academics; originally I assumed they were all research-based but that turned out to be, well, an assumption. Second, movies != games and there are still shitloads of questions out there that haven&#8217;t been answered in terms of game design, delivery of narrative and algorithmic systems: I don&#8217;t see anywhere near the same number of important questions pending for film structure.</p>
<p>Now, whether there is a clear line that can be drawn around &#8220;academic games&#8221; &#8211; whether the distinction is actually useful in any way &#8211; I&#8217;m going to come back to this in the final piece <em>The Academics Are Here</em> and try to organise what we&#8217;ve discovered through the interviews.</p>
<p>I have a bunch of other arguments which also relate to that <a href="https://twitter.com/ElectronDance/status/226039900577865728" rel="nofollow">bolshy Citizen Kane comment I tweeted this week</a> and I&#8217;m probably going to crush them into an article. (In a nutshell &#8211; I&#8217;m coming round to the idea that comparisons to &#8220;other media&#8221; are being overdone; the dissimilarities are too numerous. <a href="http://gamedesignadvance.com/?p=1567" rel="nofollow">Frank Lantz thinks games shouldn&#8217;t even be called a medium</a> but that&#8217;s really not quite what I&#8217;m thinking.)</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Brasure</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9282</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Brasure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Academic games&quot; is such a weird way to think about it... but then again, games are such a weird artform.

Like, were there academics making &quot;academic films&quot;? I mean, not really, unless my former life as a film student was spent at a really bad university. I don&#039;t know--there were certainly filmmakers working as theorists, but it seems like the game studies people making games started as theorists. It&#039;s strange. I don&#039;t know. I&#039;m rambling and probably embarrassing myself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Academic games&#8221; is such a weird way to think about it&#8230; but then again, games are such a weird artform.</p>
<p>Like, were there academics making &#8220;academic films&#8221;? I mean, not really, unless my former life as a film student was spent at a really bad university. I don&#8217;t know&#8211;there were certainly filmmakers working as theorists, but it seems like the game studies people making games started as theorists. It&#8217;s strange. I don&#8217;t know. I&#8217;m rambling and probably embarrassing myself.</p>
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		<title>By: Infinite Lives &#187; I must be blogging from beyond the grave, because I think I just died</title>
		<link>http://www.electrondance.com/a-need-to-create-mitu-khandaker/comment-page-1/#comment-9271</link>
		<dc:creator>Infinite Lives &#187; I must be blogging from beyond the grave, because I think I just died</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 22:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.electrondance.com/?p=4727#comment-9271</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] P.S. Mitu Khandaker was recently interviewed at Electron Dance. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] P.S. Mitu Khandaker was recently interviewed at Electron Dance. [...]</p>
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